“La Guitarra Áurea” no existe. La guitarra española y la proporción cordobesa o humana.

La proporción Áurea (1,6) y la proporción Cordobesa (1,3): violín versus guitarra

Es curioso que el violín, eminentemente europeo tiene proporciones Áureas o divinas y la guitarra española clásica y flamenca contemporánea se acerca más a la proporción Cordobesa o humana.

¿LA GUITARRA: PROPORCIÓN ÁUREA (divina) O CORDOBESA (humana)? Rectángulo cordobés. El valor de esta proporción es 1,306562964 y es la denominada proporción cordobesa. … El valor de esta proporción es inferior al número áureo. Su descubrimiento y estudio se debe al arquitecto afincado en Córdoba Rafael de la Hoz Arderius.

The Golden Ratio or Human Ratio?

Realizo este post con motivo del debate que se ha establecido desde hace años y que ya Ramírez estudió hace años desde punto de vista de constructor de guitarras, así como Amalia Rodríguez que muy humildemente reconoce que la proporción Áurea en el diseño literal en guitarrería es imposible:

I make this post because of the debate that has been established for years and that Ramirez studied years ago from the point of view of guitar builder, as well as Amalia Rodríguez who very humbly recognizes that the golden ratio in the literal design in guitar is impossible :

http://tiendaramirez.blogspot.com.es/2013/02/puntadas-historicas-c3-la-guitarra-aurea.html

Hace años que leí este hilo en guitarraartepulsado y descubrí desde el humilde punto de vista como guitarrero la interpretación a las proporciones de una guitarra que yo he aprendido a construir por transmisión e intuición experiencial. Pero realmente para mí fue un descubrimiento la Proporción Cordobesa o Humana que se encuentra en nuestro entorno arquitectónico andaluz y español

For years I have read this thread in guitarartepulsado.com and discovered from the humble point of view as a guitarist the interpretation to the proportions of a guitar that I have learned to build by transmission and experiential intuition. But really for me it was a discovery the Cordovan or Human Proportion that is in our Andalusian and Spanish architectural environment

(http://www2.caminos.upm.es/Departamentos/matematicas/Fdistancia/PIE/Chip%20geom%C3%A9trico/LaHoz.pdf).

Y me pregunto, hasta qué punto la arquitectura que nos rodea, nuestra experiencias visuales influyen a la hora de desarrollarnos como profesionales intrínsecamente: arquitectos, diseñadores, guitarreros….Y el diseño de la Guitarra Española consolidada con su arquitectura actual desde el el s XIX, ¿sería acaso la consecuencia de la evolución de un instrumento europeo en un entorno eminentemente español y andaluz? Es curioso pensar que el violín, eminentemente europeo tenga proporciones Áureas o divinas y la guitarra española se acerca más a la proporción Cordobesa o humana.

And I wonder, to what extent the architecture that surrounds us, our visual experiences influence when developing ourselves as professionals intrinsically: architects, designers, guitarists .... And the design of the Spanish Guitar consolidated with its current architecture from the In the 19th century, would it be the consequence of the evolution of a European institution in a predominantly Spanish and Andalusian environment? It is curious to think that the violin, eminently European has golden or divine proportions and the Spanish guitar is closer to the Cordovan or human proportion.

Pero, como ya he dicho, soy guitarrero, y las guitarras suenan y adquieren personalidad después de muchos años de trabajo, de éxitos y fracasos y, conforme a las exigencias y gustos de los guitarristas; como no soy científico, dejo la siguiente información que siempre aporta algo más al auto conocimiento de esta profesión tan experiencial e intuitiva.

But, as I said, I am a guitar maker, and guitars sound and acquire personality after many years of work, successes and failures and, according to the demands and tastes of guitarists; As I am not a scientist, I leave the following information that always contributes more to the self-knowledge of this profession, which is so experiential and intuitive.

FUENTE / SOURCE: GUITARRAARTEPULSADO.COM http://guitarra.artepulsado.com/foros/showthread.php?19486-Proporci%F3n-%E1urea

“Hola a todos:

Personalmente más o menos he seguido el hilo en el que habláis de la proporción áurea en la guitarra. Mi opinión es la siguiente; ni está ni se la espera; Sin más, la guitarra no es un instrumento en principio áureo. Vamos a ver, en lo relativo a la guitarra de Torres, el gran logro estético de este instrumento es una proporción visual que prácticamente no existía en las guitarras anteriores. Para esto, no es empleada en ningún momento la proporción áurea, salvo en un sitio que os diré cuál es.

Personally I have more or less followed the thread in which you talk about the golden ratio on the guitar. My opinion is as follows; neither is nor is expected; Without further ado, the guitar is not an instrument in principle aureus. Let's see, in relation to Torres's guitar, the great aesthetic achievement of this instrument is a visual proportion that practically did not exist in the previous guitars. For this, the golden ratio is not used at any time, except in a place that I will tell you what it is.

Pensemos en primer lugar en un tiro bastante usado en Torres; el de 640 -o 650-, me da igual. Si dividimos ese tiro entre la longitud de caja usada por Torres de 480-485, el resultado será muy aproximado a la constante 1,3, que se halla a relativa distancia del 1, 6 de la proporción áurea.
1’3, es la llamada posteriormente por el arquitecto español Rafael de la Hoz-Arderius, “proporción cordobesa”, si buceáis un poco en la red buscando los artículos de este científico, averiguaréis bastante sobre esta teoría.
Mi teoría es que la guitarra mantiene una relación en prácticamente todas sus magnitudes de 1, 3, ni más ni menos, y esto está basado en el procedimiento de inscribir la silueta de la caja de la misma en un rectángulo, que no será áureo sino cordobés, es decir:

Tiro de cuerda:longitud de caja=1,3 -esta es la base de la proporción-

SILUETA:

longitud de caja:lóbulo mayor=1,3
lóbulo mayor:lóbulo menor=1,3
lóbulo menor:cintura=1,3
cintura:doble del diámetro de boca=1,3

String shot: box length = 1.3 - this is the basis of the proportion-

SILHOUETTE:

Box length: greater lobe = 1.3
Greater lobe: lower lobe = 1.3
Minor lobe: waist = 1.3
waist: double the mouth diameter = 1.3

Donde únicamente se encuentra sin grandes problemas una proporción áurea es en un rectángulo que se crearía tomando como lado mayor la parte del tiro de cuerda que está dentro de la caja (la mirad más o menos), y como lado menor, la cintura de la guitarra. Esto sí que arroja en bastantes ocasiones un cociente de 1,6, y no carece de lógica; allá donde se busca una mayor gracilidad en el diseño de la guitarra, que es la cintura, se recurre a la proporción áurea.

Where only a golden ratio is found without great problems, it is in a rectangle that would be created taking as the largest side the part of the string shot that is inside the box (look more or less), and as a smaller side, the waist of the guitar. This, in fact, throws a quotient of 1.6 on many occasions, and does not lack logic; Wherever a greater grace is sought in the design of the guitar, which is the waist, the golden ratio is used.

El desarrollo de esto que os acabo de exponer, lo escribí el año pasado en mi tesis doctoral “construcción artesanal de la guitarra española , panorama de su construcción en Extremadura”, defendida el 30 de Junio de 2011 en Cáceres. Desafortunadamente, no está publicado, no me lo planteé jamás, pero quizá con el tiempo lo difunda. En cualquier caso, si tenéis alguna duda, no tengo inconveniente

The development of this that I just exposed, I wrote last year in my doctoral thesis "artisanal construction of the Spanish guitar, panorama of its construction in Extremadura", defended on June 30, 2011 in Cáceres. Unfortunately, it is not published, I never thought about it, but perhaps I will spread it over time. In any case, if you have any questions, I have no problem

IMPORTANTE: No me meto en lo más mínimo, ni tengo el menor interés en teologizar acerca de la relación entre la proporción y el sonido del instrumento, porque no sé casi nada de acústica. Mis investigaciones no van más allá del diseño estético.

IMPORTANT: I ​​do not get involved in the slightest, nor do I have the least interest in theologizing about the relationship between the proportion and the sound of the instrument, because I know almost nothing about acoustics. My research does not go beyond aesthetic design.

Greetings to all.

Un saludo a todos.”

Úlima edición por Rodolfo José Rodríguez fecha: 10-05-2012 a las 02:15 PM

The Golden Ratio in Guitar-Making

Resultado de imagen de dionisio aguado

Resultado de imagen de PROPORCION CORDOBESA

In most objects that are aesthetically pleasing, you will often find that the proportions that make them up are in the golden section, also known as the golden ratio, golden rectangle, golden proportion, golden cut, golden number.The ancient Pythagoreans discovered the golden ratio which is approx. 1:1,618033988749895………. This ratio is used extensively in art, painting, architecture, music, design, book design, the human body Golden sec. 9and can even be found in nature. This use of the Golden Ratio results in various objects being aesthetically pleasing to the eye.In mathematics, two quantities are in the golden ratio if their ratio is the same as the ratio of their sum to the larger of the two quantities. The figure on the right illustrates the geometric relationship. Expressed algebraically, for quantities a and b with a > b > 0,Golde sec. 1Golden sec. 2.

 

where the Greek letter phi (φ) represents the golden ratio. Its value is:

Golden sec. 3

 

 

Some of the greatest mathematical minds of all ages, from Pythagoras and Euclid in ancient Greece, through the medieval Italian mathematician Leonardo of Pisa and the Renaissance astronomer Johannes Kepler, to present-day scientific figures such as Oxford physicist Roger Penrose, have spent endless hours over this simple ratio and its properties. But the fascination with the Golden Ratio is not confined just to mathematicians. Biologists, artists, musicians, historians, architects, psychologists, and even mystics have pondered and debated the basis of its ubiquity and appeal. In fact, it is probably fair to say that the Golden Ratio has inspired thinkers of all disciplines like no other number in the history of mathematics.

Architecture

The Parthenon’s façade as well as elements of its façade and elsewhere are said by some to be circumscribed by golden rectangles.Golden sec. 6 A 2004 geometrical analysis of earlier research into the Great Mosque of Kairouan reveals a consistent application of the golden ratio throughout the design, according to Boussora and Mazouz. They found ratios close to the golden ratio in the overall proportion of the plan and in the dimensioning of the prayer space, the court, and the minaret. The Swiss architect Le Corbusier, famous for his contributions to the modern international style, centered his design philosophy on systems of harmony and proportion. Le Corbusier’s faith in the mathematical order of the universe was closely bound to the golden ratio and the Fibonacci series, which he described as “rhythms apparent to the eye and clear in their relations with one another. And these rhythms are at the very root of human activities.

Music

Ernő Lendvaï analyzes Béla Bartók’s works as being based on two opposing systems, that of the golden ratio and the acoustic scale, though other music scholars reject that analysis. French composer Erik Satie used the golden ratio in several of his pieces, including Sonneries de la Rose+Croix. The golden ratio is also apparent in the organization of the sections in the music of Debussy’s Reflets dans l’eau (Reflections in Water), from Images (1st series, 1905), in which “the sequence of keys is marked out by the intervals 34, 21, 13 and 8, and the main climax sits at the phi position.”

The musicologist Roy Howat has observed that the formal boundaries of La Mer correspond exactly to the golden section. Trezise finds the intrinsic evidence “remarkable,” but cautions that no written or reported evidence suggests that Debussy consciously sought such proportions.

Pearl Drums positions the air vents on its Masters Premium models based on the golden ratio. The company claims that this arrangement improves bass response and has applied for a patenton this innovation.

In musical instruments  this is also prevalent and in Guitar making and Violin making there are plenty of examples and if examined closely Golden sec. 4you will find these ratios everywhere. These are adapted and combined with functionality, aesthetics and tonal quality to produce the musical instrument, which over time, the shape has not varied that much, but tweaked here and there to facilitate small improvements toward making the perfect instrument.

Golden sec. 5

The Golden Ratio and Musical Aesthetics and Acoustics

Since it has been previously mentioned that the Fibonacci sequence and the Golden Ratio are related, it’s no surprise that the Golden ratio can be found in many aspects of music as well – namely the design of instruments and how they sound.

Let’s look at the guitar first. In many cases of guitars if you take the measurements of certain dimensions you will see a pattern. One specific design, the Kertsopoulos model, was specifically designed to have such patterns incorporated. Some say this affects the way the guitar sounds, but everyone has different opinions.

Whether the sound improves due to these designs a question of differing opinions for different people, but it’s undoubtedly true that the Golden Ratio shows up in many places related to music.

 

Published by Guitarmaker-Luthier Daniel Gil de Avalle

Experience and Recognition. Master Artisan Guitarmaker:Junta de Andalusia (regional government of Andalucia). Spanish national artisan prize: "Best Product" runner-up. Della Robbia artisan prize, Seville. "AndaluciaSI.es Quality Award", best logistics. Over 20 years experience dedicated to making guitars implies great customer satisfaction and has led to world-wide recognition through national and international media (Television, Web and Press), various specialist magazines on guitars such as the prestigious magazine Acordes and some time ago the Museum of Andalusia.

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